It can look like that, too.

There are lots of abuse survivors who stay.  They stay for lots of reasons.  They stay because they aren’t convinced anything wrong.  They stay because they’re threatened when they try to leave.  They stay because they’re manipulated.  They stay because they’re in love.  They stay because they think they’re just not communicating themselves well enough.  They stay because they can’t envision a better alternative being within reach.  They stay because abuse is normalized and condoned.

So when you’re making the distinctions to explain how not all D/s is abusive, you need to reach for some more complex tool than barebones “the sub chooses to form and remain in the relationship.”

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194 responses to “It can look like that, too.

  • totorolight

    ….actually. It’s more than the sub chooses to stay. The sub is actually the one in charge. Seriously. Safety words. He can explore as far as she chooses until she says that safety word. Then he backs off. She more than forms and remains in the relationship. Furthermore, in purposes of sex, the pain is meant as a pleasure. An excitement. It’s true. Some people get off on pain. Most people’s fetishes come from a specified intense feeling. Anxiety. Intense pleasure. The ego trip of control. The LACK of control. Humiliation. There are hundreds of feelings that someone might find erotic. She willing got into the relationship, willingly stayed, and knew to her bones that the bounds would never, COULD never cross from pleasure AND pain, to just pain. Because of the boundaries. Explicit, talked about boundaries that exist before such things take place. Furthermore, in the matters of “discipline” in the regards of BDSM, a good Master would never harm his sub in anger. And that is a huge difference on it’s own. There is no fear that he won’t have control of himself. In the abusive relationship….you never know the ends. Will he kill you in his fit of rage? It’s definitely been known to happen. I’m sorry, but you seem misguided on matters of bdsm and abusive relationship. I’ll mind you to ask questions instead of citing what you believe to be fact without doing a little research, like say, talking to submissive.

    • Coyote

      My best friend is a submissive.

      What’d you do, find this through the tags?

      • totorolight

        Yes. Actually. I host my own blog. About being a submissive woman. So I was looking for like-minded people. Enjoy their blog. Maybe have them peek at mine. We who ARE submissives, get pretty tired of the whole “BDSM is abuse” thing very quickly. It’s like I always say: if you don’t understand it, try to find out more. Don’t just stand there and cite your judgements as fact, self righteous and holier than thou. It’s hateful. It’s rude. It’s highly disrespectful. Why not lay out all your sex life so we can stand here and tell you how wrong it is and how pathetically uneducated you are? If you can dish it, I’m sure you wouldn’t mind a little “constructive criticism” of one of the most vulnerable and delicate portions of your life.

        • Coyote

          Right, figured that’d explain why you’re talking to me like you don’t know the context of anything going on here. If you’re interested: look at what other posts I’ve tagged as kink so you can get a sense of my personal interest in the area.

          “We who ARE submissives, get pretty tired of the whole ‘BDSM is abuse’ thing very quickly.”

          Yes. I know. So do I.

          “if you don’t understand it, try to find out more.”

          This post is literally a reaction to trying to doing research and reading things written by kinksters themselves. So, yeah. I’m working on that part.

          “Why not lay out all your sex life so we can stand here and tell you how wrong it is and how pathetically uneducated you are?”

          Get in line…? I already have. Chill, you don’t need to threaten me.

          Re: your other comment, for consolidation purposes —

          “Also I wonder if your friend knows you’re here behind her back”

          She reads my blog. I know she reads my blog. We talk about it sometimes.

          “talking about how she’s being abused by the person she loves most,”

          Where are you even getting this?

          “and how the ways in which they show that love for each other is some horrific scene of violence.”

          You’re the first person to use the word violence here.

          • totorolight

            Touche’ friend. In most areas of life, I’m far more “question, don’t accuse” but you’re right, I did accuse and attack first. So I apologize for my own snap judgement. I will look more at your blog. Maybe get a better understanding of where you’re coming from too. This is a vulnerable part of my own personal life, and it just kills to be judged all the time for it. That makes it easier to read judgement into the words of anyone who speaks about it in a way that isn’t obviously positive. Humanity isn’t wonderfully becoming on me sometimes. I apologize. If you really are looking into us “kinksters” as you put it, I have a blog, mostly devoted to my BDSM relationship. totorolightblog.wordpress.com. I would understand if you weren’t interested though. Carry on. I’m sorry again.

          • Coyote

            Yeah I understand where that comes from, but thank you for apologizing. Incidentally, this kind of hyperdefensiveness (and the whole doms = men, subs = women thing) are a part of why I feel like I wouldn’t be welcome in the kink community. Also… I’ve heard the whole “the sub is the one really in control” idea before, and I’m still wary of it, because just because both parties are obligated to ask consent doesn’t mean anything about who’s “really in control.” Like, in a classroom setting, you wouldn’t say that a student is the one “really” in control of their grade and not the teacher. All the hard work in the world doesn’t mean the teacher isn’t the one who ultimately decides.

          • totorolight

            I guess it’s par for the course. Just like athiests and christians. Can they be friends when their is so much bad blood between so many of them? Who knows. and yeah I guess you’re right. But that’s a good reason to hold off any vow to servititude until you feel whole heartedly that you can trust that person. I actually did not. I knew my man only a few months. But it has worked out for me better than I EVER hoped for. Trust….in the end it’s hard tot rust anyone with anything for any reason. We’ve all been hurt so many times. But….in my opinion….it’s worth it. For me it is.

          • Coyote

            “Can they be friends when their is so much bad blood between so many of them?”

            …Yes? I’m honestly not sure what you’re bringing this up for.

            Actually I’m not sure what any of this comment has to do with what I said. Forgive me for being easily confused.

          • totorolight

            it’s an analogy. metaphor. sure you’re familiar.

          • Coyote

            I don’t know what you’re comparing it to or what point you’re trying to make.

          • totorolight

            I’m comparing to YOU suggesting that you don’t know if you could ever be accepted in the “kink” world.

          • Coyote

            Oh.

            Well, the reason that analogy falls apart for me is that I’m a Christian with atheist friends. Meanwhile, the values and interests that are popular in the kink community are values and interests that are often contradictory to my own, and I get the impression that my presence would be very unwanted (since I’m kink-critical, gray-asexual, sex averse, not a female sub or a male dom, etc.).

          • totorolight

            I’m a Christian with atheist friends too. But I also hve tried to make more friends, and some happen to be atheists, who then SAID they could handle a friendship with me, but spent our “friendship” telling me how stupid I was for believing in anything I believe in. I think you’re hesitant regarding the kink community because you’ve been attacked (i.e. me) by people who PERCEIVED an attack from you that didn’t exist. And the kink community has been attacked many a time for real for our enjoyments. Actually, just as a completely off topic statement….I’ve come across far, FAR more sub males than sub females. Your beliefs may contradict, at least in several ways. But I’m friends with opposing political parties too. It’s all a matter of….realizing that the other person didn’t choose what they did lightly, just like you didn’t. They thought it through. They’re intelligent. They just came to a different conclusion. So long as people TRY to understand how someone else got to their end thoughts, even if they disagree with the solution, they might have respect for the other for having critical thinking ability at all.

          • Coyote

            “I think you’re hesitant regarding the kink community because you’ve been attacked (i.e. me) by people who PERCEIVED an attack from you that didn’t exist.”

            Mmmwell I’d certainly be attacking some of them. Because I do believe the kink community has a lot of serious problems.

            “I’ve come across far, FAR more sub males than sub females.”

            That makes your gender/role essentialism at the beginning of this conversation even more confusing.

          • totorolight

            “Mmmwell I’d certainly be attacking some of them. Because I do believe the kink community has a lot of serious problems.”
            I think the whole world has a lot of serious problems. What I DON’T do is wander into the world of someone who I have a HUGE problem with, under the guise that I want to understand, when really I want to tell them what I think they’re doing wrong in their lives. For instance, I don’t go over the hardcore feminists (I don’t mean your average feminist who wants what’s right, i mean you’re crazy feminist who wants much more than equality, i.e. the ones who have a problem with men being allowed to stand while urinating, the ones who say that ALL forms of penetration are abuse, and that a man holding a door for a woman is sexist). I don’t wander over into their zone of “man hate” and say I want to learn more, but really spend my time badmouthing them. I’m quite content to stay right where I am and badmouth them. As for the females vs males in the sub world, why is that confusing? I’ve met a lot of sub males. I’ve come across more of them than the females. But you need to think of it in a different form. For me, the sub male is not really one I “connect” with. We’re both subs, but I find him a conundrum. I dont’ understand him. Because I myself am a straight sub female. To me it’s not a role, that if I were a man, I would take. Besides, just because I have come across more of this type of person in my area than another, doesn’t mean that they aren’t just as prevalent. The thing is, that I seem to connect with the sub female better. I understand the sub male only so far. I’m understanding of the sub female because I AM a sub female. If you and another person both read comic books, and both LOVE them, and it’s your favorite hobby, does that mean that you get along with that person and understand them completely and you have this deep connection? Not really. Because Person X may be a hardcore Marvel devotee while you are DC Comics. Or what if one is superheroes while you are anime? What if they like your basic Archie and Dennis the Menace while you are reading something far darker? That’s what it is me. He is into the same thing, but I don’t understand the desire for the dominant female. I’m not into it at all. So we have a disconnect.

          • Coyote

            “I think the whole world has a lot of serious problems. What I DON’T do is wander into the world of someone who I have a HUGE problem with, under the guise that I want to understand, when really I want to tell them what I think they’re doing wrong in their lives.”

            Feel free to suggest an alternative.

            “I don’t mean your average feminist who wants what’s right, i mean you’re crazy feminist”

            Mental illness has nothing to do with having incorrect political stances.

            “As for the females vs males in the sub world, why is that confusing? I’ve met a lot of sub males.”

            That’s not what’s confusing. What’s confusing is why you, as someone who knows that, would describe D/s with gendered language unprompted (“He can explore as far as she chooses until she says that safety word.” –you, in your first comment on this post).

            “To me it’s not a role, that if I were a man, I would take.”

            Well that’s a creepy statement.

            Incidentally, I’ve been reading posts lately about subs playing with subs. Interested in links?

          • totorolight

            Alternative? Live and let live. Stand in your OWN area and judge and go, “That’s so sick.” But it’s just rude and in bad taste to go over to someone’s house and then tell them how you hate everything about it and how they should be ashamed of tehmselves for how they decorate. It’s THEIR house. It’s MY life. Why can’t I have whatever relationship I want? You want to “learn” about the kink lifestyle? I don’t think you do. I think you want to JUDGE to kink lifestyle. But not just judge. You want THEM to change. Because YOU think it’s wrong. That’s the alternative. Stay in your OWN house and say how wrong and shameful it is to have a plaid comforter. Don’t say “Gee I wanna learn about this particular style of decorating” when really you want to tell the person how ugly it is. As for the crazy feminist, you take things out of context and I think you do it in a manipulating fashion. I think you knew EXACTLY what I meant. The “crazy” feminist. As in the one with RADICAL ideas about the relationships of men and women. And I’m not at all amused and I don’t consider it a “victory” to use semantics. Really it just makes you look stupid because YOU’RE the one who took the semantics into context, even knowing what was MEANT in the conversation. “That’s not yellow. It’s Goldenrod. And it has nothing to do with the color of bananas”…..ok. whatever you say darlin. Secondly, I use gendered language because I AM A SUB FEMALE. Why do you think that I would use examples from my own life without using a gendered example????? Do you REALLY think that I’m supposed to go, “sub PEOPLE like me” in my every sentence? That’s insane. That’s not confusing. That’s you being an idiot. I’m a sub female so I talk about myself in the sub female context. Besides the fact that I’m NOT a sub male, sub males actually DO have differences from sub females. So why exactly would I presume to speak for them? Let a sub male come and talk for himself. Also not sure why it’s creepy to consider what my life would be like if I were someone else. Peopel do it every day. Ever read a BOOOK? That’s people pretending they are someone else and then writing as if they ARE that person so that the READER can better understand the character created. I think you have surpassed my tolerance of idiocy. I was willing to take things back and reconsider but now I’ve reconsidered. You dont’ argue your points with logic. You argue them with manipulation and bs. Playing the semantics cards, despite knowing what someone means, suggesting they are creepy for trying to give you an example so you can better understand, and suggesting it’s confusing that people use their own gender when talking of something from their perspective. It’s all….just the most ridiculous arguments I’ve ever heard in my life. “crazy can NEVER mean radical” and “it’s CREEPY to imagine yourself as another gender, what kindd of person you might be” and all that other nonsense. Why don’t you state something REAL. You’re little interrogation method, to try to “confuse me” or whatever your “back room method” is meant to do, has failed miserably and now I’m just sitting here thinking how moronic you must be to even think of those as arguments, or even VALID QUESTIONS to bring up for ANY of what we’ve spoken about. It’s mind boggling that to you that is logic. And finally, as to subs playing with subs, I’ve done that. I’ve been in far more than 2 relationships in my life, yet only 2 sub dom relationships. Why is this somehow shocking for you? Hasn’t there ever been something you really enjoyed in a person, but you fell in love with someone who didn’t have that quality, and it didn’t matter as much? Fact is that I was engaged to another sub female for about a year. We were together for almost 3. We had our own ways of getting those needs fulfilled which I won’t go into. Suffice to say that I loved her, and love her deeply, and she has offered for me to come and be with her and her dom, and I have invited for her to come and be with me and mine. I think I’m well versed in sub/dom, subs being with other subs, the abusive relatonship, as well as your average joe relationship becuase I’ve experienced them all. You haven’t. Yet you act as if you know it all, then try to confuse someone who DOES with questions about semantics or technicalities, or random nonsense that is completely 100% off topic. So. Enjoy your judgemental rants. You might as well be a person with no in depth knowledge of science trying to explain nuclear fusion. It’s far more complex than you’ll ever even ATTEMPT to understand, yet you stand up there with your high and mighty, holier than thou attitude, reciting your judgements like you read them off of a note card. It’s sickening. And I really think, you are far too stubborn and wedded to your ignorance to even consider looking through someone else’s eyes. Have a nice life. Glad I took the time to find out if my assessment of you was correct. Good news for me: it was. Bye now.

          • Coyote

            “Stand in your OWN area”

            My own area? The area I don’t have? Right, got it.

            “But it’s just rude and in bad taste to go over to”

            No, it’s not “rude” to want abusers to be held accountable for being abusers. Read this. (I suggest starting with Part 1, but Part 7 is the one with all the links)

            “You want THEM to change.”

            Yeah, I want to protect people I care about by convincing people to stop accomodating abusers. Absolutely I want people to change.

            Are you coming onto my blog telling me I shouldn’t say that? Are you perhaps… wanting me to change?

            “As for the crazy feminist, you take things out of context”

            The context was that you were talking about people you don’t agree with and calling them crazy. I, a crazy person, believe this is irresponsible, because mental health and political opinions are two different things, and you’re only hurting people like me and others I care about by using one to refer to the other. What’s out of context about that?

            “I think you knew EXACTLY what I meant.”

            Yes, and I think wordchoice has broader implications than the immediate intent. That’s another political opinion of mine.

            “Secondly, I use gendered language because I AM A SUB FEMALE. Why do you think that I would use examples from my own life without using a gendered example?”

            …So did I misinterpret your first comment? I didn’t think it was supposed to be a specific example from your own life. I thought you were talking in general.

            “That’s insane.”

            No, it’s perhaps inconvenient for your particular communication goals. Quit it with the health metaphors.

            “Also not sure why it’s creepy to consider what my life would be like if I were someone else. ”

            That’s not what’s creepy.

            “’it’s CREEPY to imagine yourself as another gender’”

            It most certainly is not.

            “Why don’t you state something REAL.”

            Can you clarify your request, please?

          • totorolight

            But it sounds to ME like you want things to be far more black and white than human beings can ever be.

          • Coyote

            Huh? I thought that was what you were doing. Well, I guess since we both agree that that would be an undesirable position to take, we could backtrack and try and find the point of divergence.

          • totorolight

            LoL yeah. no. I’m trying to explain my own perspective. That includes the complexities of the gray areas, not just the black and white. I.e. sub/dom relationships must be abusive because they both involve someone who “chose” to stay. It’s not that black and white.

          • Coyote

            I thought we had moved on to talking about whether “dom” carries an embedded moral meaning. i.e. are there “true” doms and abusers, or are there decent doms and abusive doms?

          • totorolight

            Isn’t that part of my entire statement about explaining my perception of the dom/sub relationship, and what a true “dom” male is? Explaining how I think a dom carries an embedded moral compass? An explanation of my perception of the dom vs the abuser.

          • Coyote

            Yes…? That’s the topic I thought we were talking about (and the idea I was trying to dispute), yes. Then you implied I was trying to make things black and white by disputing that idea, which makes no sense, so can we go back to the original topic now?

          • totorolight

            Maybe it’s not something I’ll ever be able to explain to you. As you said, you have a different view. I’ll never understand the fetish for the dominant female even if I have a fetish for the dominant male. To that end, maybe you’ll never understand the enjoyment of being a sub, or being a dom, or wanting anything to do with that kind of relationship because it’s just not what YOU are into. The Marvel comic devotee will never really understand the DC comic guy either. And maybe in all that, I’m misguided in my reaction to perceived “slander” of my enjoyment. Because the fact is that people who hate the Dolphins will always talk smack about them and praise the Lions or whomever they like. Maybe you’re just fated to your perspective that “too many problems exist in the kink world” and will never be able to believe any different. And maybe I’m fated to the belief that the kink community isn’t any more ridden with problems than any other types of relationships. And maybe i’m also fated to my own cheerleader attitude towards the relationship I enjoy. In the end…maybe we both just need to walk away and accept it. You’ll never get my appreciation for it because it’s not for you. I like apple pie and you think it’s gross. You like cheesecake and I think it’s too plain. How about you just enjoy what you enjoy and I enjoy what I enjoy, and you can say “Apple pie is gross” and I’ll say “I like apple pie because it’s tart and sweet and crunchy” and you’ll go “yeah but that’s not GOOD.” And then I’ll attack your cheesecake with how plain and boring and “trendy” it is, how it isn’t tart at all, and you’ll defend yours and I’ll ay, “well that doesn’t make THAT good.” lol This is who we are. I’m a sub. You’re not. And I can’t explain to you why that’s the flavor I like. That’s just me.

          • Coyote

            “And maybe I’m fated to the belief that the kink community isn’t any more ridden with problems than any other types of relationships.”

            One in three kinksters report a consent violation.

            “I’m a sub. You’re not.”

            I don’t know how you decided that but okay.

          • totorolight

            P.S. I am sorry for your friend. Once the trust starts to disintegrate it gets bad fast. Thats for any relationship. I hope she doesn’t get more hurt than she already has been. :(

          • Coyote

            I… still don’t know what you’re talking about. At no point did I make any declaration about any of the specific relationships she’s in.

          • totorolight

            perhaps I read it wrong i thought you’d mentioned a friend who was starting to have violent-like problems with the person she loves more than anyone? I was multitasking so I would have to go back and read a lot.

          • Coyote

            I assume you must have gotten my comment/post mixed up with something else you were reading around the same time.

          • totorolight

            And no. I’m not interested in any research statistics. Because what I’M talking about isn’t about research. It’s not fact. It’s opinion. An opinion that cannot be proven false anymore than it can be proven true. Research will do nothing to help that. There are men who think that they want such a relationship. Maybe they even have a fetish. But they could never actually handle it. Then they lose control of themselves, their subs, their lives, and everything else. All too easy to turn abusive if you’re someone who doesn’t have the capacity to handle such heavy responsibilities.

          • Coyote

            “And no. I’m not interested in any research statistics.”

            Okay.

            “Then they lose control of themselves, their subs, their lives, and everything else. All too easy to turn abusive”

            I think we have different conceptualizations of what “abusive” means. I don’t believe that abusers “lose control of themselves” when they abuse. If you’re interested, here’s how I think of abuse.

          • totorolight

            that’s not what I meant. What I’m saying is, they say they can handle controlling all these aspects in their lives, and then when things become to much, they let it all go to hell in a hand basket. They spend their days and nights feeling resentful, angry, depressed, they don’t accomplish anything, they let down their sub, they let down themselves, and generally allow chaos to take over. Yeah. Abusers do things intentionally. But in a way it IS a matter of losing control. Only they odn’t lose it. They allow it. They allow themselves to be run by their emotions. “I’m mad. I think I’ll hurt”. That’s the specific kind of abuse I’m speaking of. Although I’m perfectly aware of how there are many many more ways that an abuse person abuses. But I don’t mean just your average joe abuser. I mean the “pretend dom” abusers. Not the ones who pretend to be a dom because they like to abuse. I mean the dominant men who think they want that, but then realize that the responsibilities far outweigh the benefits and then give up and purposefully allow any emotion they feel at the time to take over. “I resent her so I will take out all of this anger out on her. It IS all ehr fault that I’m so overwhelmed”. THAT specific type.

          • Coyote

            “what I’m saying is, they say they can handle controlling all these aspects in their lives, and then when things become to much, they let it all go to hell in a hand basket. They spend their days and nights feeling resentful, angry, depressed,”

            Okay. That just sounds like a misjudgement of their abilities.

            “Abusers do things intentionally. But in a way it IS a matter of losing control. Only they odn’t lose it. They allow it. They allow themselves to be run by their emotions.”

            Have you ever read “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft?

            “Not the ones who pretend to be a dom because they like to abuse. I mean the dominant men who”

            What is the difference between pretending to be a dom and being a dom? Since you just said that there are dominant men who can’t handle it.

          • totorolight

            I did but I don’t recall much of it….that’s a complicated story of why that I won’t get into. Anyway. The difference between PRETENDING to be a dom and BEING a dom are complex. But here is ONE example of pretending to be a dom: a man who really just has a fetish for hurting women. Fetish for rape and torture scenes, so claims to be a “dominant man” but really wants nothing to do with the woman but to hear her scream. Pretending man #2 may be a man who looks at the benefits of being a dominant man, or even misinterprets what it is to be a dominant man, and decides that is what he wants. For instance, a stereotype of a dominant man is that he doesn’t really have to compromise. He can just have whatever he wants. This is not entirely true. He has a duty to the woman he owns. Should he cross a line and she begins to resent him, it’s all down hill from there. If he shows no care for her wants or needs or desires, he will lose her respect, and he will lose her care. And in teh end he will lose her. He does have an obligation. Only his is a moral contract where her’s is a more substantial one. It’s all too easy to say the King has the fantastic life and I wish I had his life. GRass is always greener. But a dom has so many responsibilities. And keeping his sub enjoying her subserviance is actually one of them. One of the least talked about, but most important ones. So the “pretend dom” is the one who thinkis that’s the life he wants. That’s the life he’s meant for. He wants to have all the control, wants to have all teh decision making ability, to get what he wants when he wants it……but doesn’t realize that such a life is far more fantasy than he thinks. That doesn’t even exist for the dominant male. The pretend dom. The one who thinks he’s a good decision maker, but really just wants the “easy life”, then misguidedly thinks that the “easy life” is teh one of the dominant man.

          • Coyote

            “here is ONE example of pretending to be a dom: a man who really just has a fetish for hurting women. Fetish for rape and torture scenes, so claims to be a ‘dominant man’ but really wants nothing to do with the woman but to hear her scream.”

            Okay… what part’s the pretending?

            “He has a duty to the woman he owns.”

            Please don’t use that word for this. Just… take that away from here.

            “If he shows no care for her wants or needs or desires, he will lose her respect”

            So what you’re saying is that when an abuser abuses, as a result the person being abused will stop respecting their abuser?

          • totorolight

            The pretending part is that he doesn’t have a desire for a RELATIONSHIP. He doesn’t want anything to do with another PERSON. He wants a person to HURT. He just can “get away” with it more easily in the sub/dom world. Really he’s a rapist/murderer/narcicist/torturing jerk who is better off dead. The actual sub/dom relationship involves two WHOLE peoeple who want TWO whole lives and want to work together to have that. A man who just wants to hurt women is a sociopath. He isn’t getting off the control. He’s getting off on the pain. What he really wants is to kill women. To torture them until they’re dead. Because he’s a sociopath. That’s the pretending part. He’s not a dom. He’s a sociopath trying to find easy access to victims. Then he’ll kill them, they’ll be missing person’s, and he’ll go find another victim to torture to death. He doesn’t get a thrill out of hurting her to get her to combine the pain and pleasures. he wants to hurt her because he wants to HURT her. He just happens to get the girl to not fight while he ties her up, then that’s just gravy isn’t it.

          • Coyote

            “The pretending part is that he doesn’t have a desire for a RELATIONSHIP.”

            Sure he does. I guess now you’re embedding ideals into the term “relationship”? Implying “relationship” = healthy, good relationship, and people who want controlling relationships are people who don’t want relationships? Abusive relationship isn’t an oxymoron, you know.

            “He just can ‘get away’ with it more easily in the sub/dom world.”

            Ain’t that the truth.

            “A man who just wants to hurt women is a sociopath.”

            Your medical terminology is undercutting the strength of your moral condemnation. If you want to use the word evil, say evil. This isn’t a matter of something as amoral and blameless as illness.

            “He isn’t getting off the control. He’s getting off on the pain.”

            So… are you implying that if he were getting off on control, he wouldn’t be an abuser? (Also I thought BDSM practictioners saw no moral issue with getting off on pain.)

            “Because he’s a sociopath. That’s the pretending part. He’s not a dom.”

            …A sociopath pretending what? That he wants to dominate and hurt, which you just described as his sincere desires? Look, you’re talking in circles here. Are you familiar with the “No True Scotsman” fallacy?

          • totorolight

            No. I’m saying that a person who gets into a sub/dom contract has a right to certain expectations. LOVE is one of them. An abuser doesn’t love anyone but himself. And anyone who can’t love another has no right to be in ANY relationship. But you get into a position of being a dom, you can’t say “respect me” and not EARN that respect. That’s a huge difference between a dom and an abuser. The toddler who says “gimme because i’m me” and the man who says “I will earn what I want.”

          • Coyote

            “I’m saying that a person who gets into a sub/dom contract has a right to certain expectations.”

            Well, yes.

            “And anyone who can’t love another has no right to be in ANY relationship.”

            More or less.

            “But you get into a position of being a dom, you can’t say ‘respect me’ and not EARN that respect.”

            Sure you can. In that it’s something that is possible and can happen and does. My argument is only that things that do happen and things that should happen aren’t always mutually inclusive.

            “That’s a huge difference between a dom and an abuser.”

            You’re literally doing the thing where by implication you’re saying people can’t be abused by doms. Stop that.

      • totorolight

        Also I wonder if your friend knows you’re here behind her back talking about how she’s being abused by the person she loves most, and how the ways in which they show that love for each other is some horrific scene of violence. I wonder if she knows you think that she’s just a misguided, pathetic, girl in absolute denial of what is “really” happening. And I wonder if you would still be friends if that were the case.

    • epochryphal

      hey woahhh. okay, i’ve read all the comments here, and i want to jump in as a fellow sub-type person and survivor, one who has encouraged coyote (that’s OP) to talk abt this stuff:

      the point is, saying “all bdsm is NOT abuse” is just as unnuanced as “all bdsm IS abuse” and helps hide actual abuse. and that the kink community has to get better at this bc it’s a festering problem.

      your example is weirdly cishet maledom and ooc for our general discussions; we usually assume a backdrop of familiarity with queer and non-binary and ace-umbrella identities, and are interested in deconstructing, say, hetero centrism and D/s binaries.

      i’d also like to suggest, pressure is still a thing? often a nuanced thing, a hard to pin down thing. there’s lots of surface “you’re in control!” that can have undertones of “but if you choose x, that will make me feel y” (y being sad, or angry, or suicidal, etc). Just as one instance.

      Basically, perfect on paper doesn’t equal perfect consent? having a safe contract that’s abided by… isn’t guaranteed by having a contract (or even by having a history of respecting boundaries — there IS no guarantee). and it’s so incredibly important to be watchful for, cognizant of, and as preventative as possible of abuse, and the culture where it’s okay (because it isn’t Really abuse, couldn’t be, etc).

      does that make sense? the point is, generalizing “x type of relationship isn’t ever abusive” makes those relationships safer targets for abuse.

      (and i totally get that fighting back against “all bdsm is inherently abusive!” is hard and exhausting and lends to counterstatements…but we have to not overextend in the wrong direction. and tbh, abuse in a kink relationship is so awful, and was extra hard for me to detect, in part because Kink Is Not Abuse. so. remedying that.)

      • luvtheheaven

        epochryphal, thank you for this comment, and Coyote, thanks for the original post. And all your posts you’ve been writing lately on this topic. I have been appreciating reading them and the nuance you bring to discussion on the topic, and I’m sorry it’s being lost on some readers.

      • totorolight

        That’s absolutely correct. I haven’t had a contract of my own go sour in the sense of “consent” issues. I’ve only been in two “official” of this type of relationship. I am sickened by people who try to cover being abusive by claiming to be dominant. It gives the rest of the doms a bad name. But Im also protective of men like my husband. Yeah…submissiveness comes down to a MASSIVE amount of trust in another human being. But that’s just part of the gamble. Yeah. You could gamble and lose….but you could gamble and win! I don’t generalize sub/dom relationships never being abusive. I generalize a TRUE dom never beeing abusive. There is a difference. The abusive man masquerading as a dom, and the dominant man. I see no other option in regards to the “dominant man”. It’s all a matter of perspective. To me….no a true dom/sub relationship is 99.9% of the time not abusive. Because it requires both parties to be fully committed to their role. But if the dom/sub relationship has doubt…has somkeone not fully committed…..it will fail.

        • Coyote

          “I don’t generalize sub/dom relationships never being abusive. I generalize a TRUE dom never beeing abusive. There is a difference. The abusive man masquerading as a dom, and the dominant man.”

          Mmmno. This is still implying that the sub/dom relationships that are abusive are therefore not “true” sub/dom relationships, and that abusive doms are “fake” doms, as if there’s some embedded moral component to being a dom.

          To go back to my teacher analogy: some teachers are abusive. Would you say that abusive teachers aren’t “real” teachers? That’d be silly. There’s fair teachers and there’s unfair/abusive teachers, not “true” teachers and fake teachers.

          “To me….no a true dom/sub relationship is 99.9% of the time not abusive.”

          Would you perchance be interested in some researched statistics?

          “Because it requires both parties to be fully committed to their role. But if the dom/sub relationship has doubt…has somkeone not fully committed…..it will fail.”

          idk if somebody says “hey let’s not do D/s anymore” I don’t think that means the relationship has “failed.”

          • totorolight

            I believe there IS an embedded moral component to being a dom. Can a man who expects to run the lives of not only himself but another adult and potentially children….can he really be without a VERY strong moral compass? Sure there is no such thing as perfection. But the fact of the matter is that I don’t associate an “abusive” relationship with a couple of mistakes. I associate them based on continued behavior. I was in a relationship (Not sub/dom) many years back and the man ended up slapping me one time. We were together for 2 years and he slapped me one time. I don’t characterize that relationship as abusive. I characterize it as average with him making some mistakes and me making others. I called him out of name, and manipulated him on a couple of occasions. We’re human. I expect mistakes to be made. AND I DO believe that true dom is few and far between. Because it takes a man wise enough, patient enought, strong enough, smart enough, etc. And those men who can handle running two lives that way, without feeling completely overwhelmed and therefore depressed, are few and far between. A true dom to ME means he actually CAN handle it. And do so without losing track of himself. And without falling victim to the whole “heavy is the head that wears the crown” thing. No. I don’t think a lot of men have that ability.

          • Coyote

            “I characterize it as average with him making some mistakes and me making others.”

            For what it’s worth, I don’t think slapping someone is a “mistake” unless the person has a physical disability that involves muscle spasms.

            Anyway, it still sounds like you’re confusing “is” and “ought.”

          • totorolight

            No. I mean letting your emotions get the better of you, doing something you REGRET. That’s a mistake. I didn’t mean “Accidentally doing something physical”. I mean mistake as in, doing something you wish you hadn’t. My relationship with the man who physically abused me for 3 years….he never regretted it.

          • Coyote

            Parading regret is a type of manipulation strategy (one that was attempted on me as soon as I decided to leave the Ex-Friend) so that’s not indicative of anything in my mind. It’s tough stuff to sort out.

          • totorolight

            Yes it is. In my experience one that only happens in the beginning. But I am aware that that is only MY experience. I don’t mean pretending regret. I mean actually FEELING regret. Sincerity. Not wanting to hurt someone you care about. My experience with abusive people is that they don’t care about anyone but themselves. They don’t ACTUALLY care that you are hurting, they CARE that you are trying to make them feel bad for it. So they use anything to get you to stop that. Then later they’ll tell you that you brought it on yourself. No matter what….it’s never about you. It IS hard to find out when someone is sincere. It really is. But to me, the biggest factor is actions. If a person continues in the behavior they “feel bad for”, they obviously don’t. I didn’t say the “saying they feel regretful” factor. I said the “FEELING regretful” one. My ex told me he regretted all the things he did, but he’d do it again the second he had the chance. WORDS aren’t indicative of anything perhaps. But an abusive person lies with their words (and more) all the time.

          • epochryphal

            (quietly jumps back in)

            so this last bit you said here resonates with my experience. just wanted to say that.

            i also want to say, i think we can all agree that we want kink to be safe, yes? to be free from abuse.

            the problem is, it ISN’T right now. and probably, won’t ever be, as long as there’s vanilla abuse, any abuse in the world. because it gets everywhere.

            and…yeah. the no true scotsmen thing is like. it’s like saying the westboro baptist church isn’t REALLY christian, because they’re horrible. totally an understandable reaction, to change the definition. but it IS changing the definition, and what it does is lessen responsibility, because “meh they’re not christian so they’re not our in-group so we don’t have to mop up and deal with them, it’s not our mess.”

            anyway.

            the other bits i wanted to throw in are, again, really different backgrounds between you two! different word circles and priority structures.

            i mentioned the queer/ace/trans centricity thing right? which makes any “he will please her” and “male doms” stuff sound very general and out of place and weird and not, like, adequately acknowledging the diversity of dynamics.

            well there’s also the whole neurodiversity element, and sociopath as a slur used to condone violence against mentally ill people by painting us as the truly violent ones (despite statistics, anecdata, …). and the use of “crazy” to dismiss us, as oversensitive, as looking for oppression everywhere — instead of, y’know, facing and noticing a hostile world.

            we’re also used to having words like “radfem” for “radical feminist” around, and for that to mean “hates trans women” more than “hates men.” so… a lot of different baselines and normals.

            i hope you can take in good faith that, well, this has been a good faith conversation. and just as you’ve probably felt misheard, and on edge about certain words or ideas — same here. whenever i try to talk about abuse in kink, this seems to happen, that it’s so so hard to bridge the gaps and actually communicate and hold all the pieces.

            so i just. i think this is really important. and it hurts. and i wish it didn’t and i wish there were better ways for establishing baselines. but the whole point is to make things safer, by figuring out how danger and abuse happen — and to make kink safer, by figuring out how abuse happens in it.

            (and it does happen, with community leaders, with kinksters of decades, with switches and people who aren’t a dom or sub OR switch, in all sorts of configurations. because it’s this awful, person-being-a-bad-person thing, that can happen anywhere. like in a church. which doesn’t make them not a church member, even if you want to, viscerally feel a need to, call them not a real christian.)

          • totorolight

            I will respond in ONE way to this: Your idea of the whole Westboro Baptist Church being the same….It is similar. And frankly I feel it proves my point even more. You say “well it’s not my mess so I don’t have to mess with it.” like that’s somehow untrue. It IS true. It is not the fault of other Christians that some people misunderstood their jobs or rolls as Christians and went and started being uber jerks to everyone in the world. Commiting evil in the name of God and etc etc. That’s a matter of personal responsibility. If you have a group of people who are ALSO Christian who are just as condemning of that behavior as the rest of the world, why are the other christians being expected to do something about them? They ARE doing something. They are condemning the behavior and encouraging them to act appropriately, and even protesting the protesters (i.e. going to protest the Westboro Church). All of which they do because they’re against this too, not becuase it’s somehow their JOB to fix a mess THEY created. They DIDN’T create it. They never encouraged that behavior. So I just don’t understand your use of it as an example. The same goes with the d/s community. My dom does NOT approve of abusive men. He discourages this behavior and has talked to other doms about what it is to be a good dom that ISN’T abusive and etc. What more do you expect of him? What more do you expect of ME? I didn’t create the “mess”. I don’t encourage abuse. I didn’t give them the idea that abuse was ever acceptable. So why exactly am I more responsible for their behavior than other people? Just because I’m a sub, or my dom is dominant, and we like something that THAT guy also likes? So if I like ice cream and then a bad guy goes into the ice cream shop and robs it, am I more responsible for this horrific turn of events than the people who DON’T like ice cream? No. The ice cream thief took his enjoyment to a level that we other ice cream lovers don’t approve of. he twisted his enjoyment of ice cream into believing that he was entitled to get something he was never entitled to. The abusive man likes to boss around women, so I’m somehow responsible when he starts beating her up? I don’t think so. And this conversation is tricky, and you get this defensive response because it IS offensive. You can’t sit there and say that I am an enabler of men I abhor, and that I’m responsible for women being abused, or even SLIGHTLY suggest that without my lashing right back. I didn’t make those men what they ARE, and I sure didn’t make them do what they DO. I’m not sure what is expected to “fix” this situation of men who like dominant sexual relations but also think it’s perfectly acceptable to beat a woman to a bloody pulp or abuse her in any way. But it is, and will always be, offensive for anyone to sit there and look at ME or my DOM like “Why aren’t you fixing it?” or “Why do you encourage this bad behavior”, when I very literally have nothing to do with it. THEY came into MY space and started messing stuff up. I didn’t invite them into my space and encourage them to do so.

          • epochryphal

            the point is that people outside the community are hearing the awful negative stuff, without hearing it being condemned.

            and yeah it’s parallel: i DON’T hear christians condemning westboro baptist church anywhere NEAR enough for how negatively wbc impacts me.

            it’s not my responsibility to give all christians the benefit of the doubt that “oh yeah you probably condemn wbc.” and also, that’s not good odds for me to take.

            same thing.

          • totorolight

            Not a responsibility to assume the best in people instead of the worst, or judging those you don’t know? I guess we’ll just tend to disagree there. Typically, what is acceptable social behavior is to condemn those you absolutely KNOW have done the things you are condemning them for. I.e. “The WBC are just the most horrible people. It’s shocking how terrible they treat others. I sure hope God has a lot to say to them when they meet.” Instead of “Christians are just horrible people. Just look at the WBC. They’re the perfect example of just what I hate about all Christian people. I wish the Christian people would fix this mistake THEY made.” When in reality…all other Christians are NOT responsible for the behavior of the one church. If you meet a Christian and they start citing some hateful banter, please feel free to hate them. Dislike, judge, whatever else. But I do, and will always, think it’s wrong to group everyone under a label. And furthermore, tell them that they are responsible for the wrongdoers. Talk about encouraging wrong doing: lets give the blame of the behavior to a whole mess of people that had nothing to do with it. That won’t make them feel less responsible for THEIR OWN actions at all. Oh wait. Yeah. It kinda does.

          • epochryphal

            hugely extrapolated here. what.

            you keep talking about “responsibility” and “their behavior isn’t my responsibility, it’s your responsibility to not be wary of me just because they exist”

            that’s not how responsibility works

          • totorolight

            Yeah. It actually is. Using CAUTION with people for the behavior of those with similar interests is very different than telling the people who have similar interests they are RESPONSIBLE for the bad acts of that person.

          • totorolight

            My complaint isn’t and hasn’t been being “wary” of people in kink and s/m. Or cautious. My statement is, and was always, stop condemning us for the acts of THEM. In case they didn’t teach YOU this in school, you’re not supposed to stereotype.

          • epochryphal

            nice ad hominem. you are extremely unpleasant to talk with even though We Don’t. Dis. Agree.

          • totorolight

            We don’t? I believe you were just arguing that it was the people of the s/m community who were responsible for cleaning up “their mess” regarding abuse. Yeah. I highly disagree with that. It’s not my responsibility to clean up after them. I didn’t make their mess.

          • epochryphal

            more like, Understand that there Is a mess and why people might be wary and, also, the way you might be letting it slide (which sure! sounds like you personally aren’t! rad! doesn’t mean other people don’t need to hear this.)

          • totorolight

            Like I said. Don’t have a problem with “wary”. Have a problem with condemnation. And I am not generally the type to sit around while others stereotype, condemn, or otherwise badmouth things that don’t deserve it. It’s unjust. And I’m also not the type to sit around idle while misinformation is spread to defame, not only a lifestyle, but every person in it.

          • totorolight

            People who want to be read in a specific way, need to try to SPEAK in that specific way. If this was just a statement that was made to mean something slightly different than perceived, that would’ve been stated. Instead the point was argued that, yeah, s/m relationships ARE abusive. And even when they aren’t, they ARE because it’s YOUR mess, and you allow it and encourage it and etc etc. And even if YOU specifically didn’t argue that (I haven’t reviewed in quite some time) at least ONE did: the original poster.

          • epochryphal

            not when they’re talking to their specific audience who reads the CONTEXT of talking Often about abuse and, specifically, abuse in kink contexts, and being told an abusive kink is Not Actually Kink At All

            and NO. op has said over and over, here and elsewhere:

            SOME d/s relationships are abusive
            saying NONE are is a Huge Problem

            with me so far?

            saying “not all d/s is abusive!” doesn’t go far enough to acknowledge Hey, Sometimes It Is Abusive and that’s Not Okay and it’s Still d/s — it doesn’t magically become not d/s because it’s abusive, and therefore equal “no (true) d/s is abusive”

            the entire. context here. is being repeatedly told that if it’s abusive, it’s not d/s. and that’s a fallacy and avoidant and it enables abuse to infiltrate kink spaces and that’s A Problem

            this is SO DIFFERENT from saying “if you’re kinky, and you’re not abusive yourselves, you’re still abusive”

            it’s talking. about the way Fetlife bans survivors from talking about who abused them

            about the institutional structures that keep abusive people in positions of power in the community

            it’s! a Large topic! with context! that was clear from the REST OF THE BLOG

          • totorolight

            Yeah I won’t go into that argument again. In any case, you think that what I say is not in context because you think I make assumptions without research. Which in itself is an assumption. I have read other discussions and posts of the blog. A lot of them. And this is a pot calling the kettle black thing. Because you are referencing only portions of my argument as well. When I started, I merely pointed out that bdsm isn’t as black and white as coyote was making it out to be. And that lumping us together with abusers was wrong and offensive. I didn’t make what I have repeated back to you lightly. I did it based on the responses I received after I stated what I did, and from what I have read in this blog. It was coincidence that this blog came up in my “recommended” certainly, but that doesn’t mean that I just made a bunch of assumptions and ran with them. See, I typically try to learn more before I make my full on accusations. I had to fight the statement that ALL BDSM is abusive before we even GOT to the whole “well some is!” argument. In the end, my whole point stands: we in the BDSM community whom are NOT abusers, dissociate ourselves from those that are because we despise them as much as the rest of the world does. And this is the method in which we do. That’s that. You don’t have to like it. But it’s how things are.

          • epochryphal

            I AM IN. THE BDSM. COMMUNITY. MYSELF. HAVE BEEN FOR A DECADE. and this is NOT HOW “””WE””” handle abusers. and even if it was? WE NEED TO DO. BETTER.

            the entire point of the op.

            i have cited your vitriolic words and contrasted them with coyote’s civility. in an early comment, you Admit you attacked “first.” shortly thereafter you switch to being Proved Right. and then after that, to having misinterpreted again, ;p face.

            you have treated us with absolute hostility, and been Appalled at us standing firm in our beliefs. we point out your assumptions and you accuse us of making worse ones.

            your point is totalizing of all kinksters and i stand here in obvious immediate refutation, because no, that is not how i, A Kinkster And Member Of The BDSM Community, handle abuse.

          • totorolight

            yeah? then YOU do better. You are responsible for YOU. I am responsible for ME. I don’t feel responsible for abusers. And I’m not going to. I don’t have to. And no one, even a fellow d/s person is going to “shame” me into feeling responsible for them. I keep asking and no one has said. What exactly do you recommend for “doing better” anyway? I full on have made some abusers “famous” by spreading their actions to as many people as would listen, posting their pictures online, included their criminal record and all. I have spoken loudly and proudly against abuse in all its forms. What more is it that you want? Why exactly does it come across that you think I need to tell every person I see that I have a BDSM lifestyle and then warn them about abusers in my community? If i’m warning them otherwse of any abuser I come across then what’s the problem? I seriously have no idea what you want in regards to the BDSM community doing better. BDSM culture in YOUR part of the world/country may operate differently, but the ones in my area, all the ones I’ve met, literally ALL of them, do the same as I do: dissociate ourselves from the abusers with the terms “real dom” and “true BDSM” etc. I guess we all got sick of the accusations and bs over here. Maybe you’re more tolerant.

          • epochryphal

            california bay area holla~ home of a Giant kink scene~

            so what we’re saying?

            is that “real dom” and “true BDSM” etc?

            suggest that if someone is Sincere and Really a kinkster

            they can’t be abusive

            which leads to people in the kink scene doubting their experiences of abuse

            because “but he IS a Real Dom” etc

            it’s gaslighting and dangerous semantics and it hurts survivors by saying “oh, well your abuser wasn’t a REAL dom” and it hurts people currently in abusive bdsm relationships

            and that’s the entire argument we’re making

            (plus yknow. that again. Fetlife and kink spaces, tend to shut down discussion of abusers, discredit survivors, Institutionally Systemically)

            you probably disagree! coolio! doesn’t mean we’re calling all bdsm abusive.

            DOES mean we’re saying “a bdsm relationship, like ANY relationship, can be abusive” and “we don’t think saying that Isn’t BDSM or isn’t a Real Relationship helps at all.”

          • totorolight

            Oh no. I’ve explained myself very clearly. An abuser can’t be a dom. A real dom has the ABILITY to turn into an abuser. The biggest thing that makes people different from one another is their way of thinking. How they think, what they think, etc. And the perspective of the d/s culture in MY area is that you cannot be both. One or the other. One can BECOME the other, but they cannot coexist. AND usually the more common thing to occur is that an abuser just comes into the community, masquerading as a dom, when really he’s just an abuser. That’s how it is HERE. Furthermore, I don’t understand how you think it’s so different than anything else. How many women in relationships or even out on a date have struggled with the idea that they may have been raped? Doubting that it was what they thought because they flirted, they dressed scantily, they talked about sex, they kissed, etc. There is ALWAYS a reason for people to doubt, and no one wants to believe something bad happened to them. That’s for the movies ya know? I STILL don’t believe it happens more in the BDSM community than other places. It all comes back to the same statement:” No. I didn’t want it.” The rest doesn’t matter. If you didn’t want it, the rest LITERALLY Doesn’t matter. There is nothing else to wonder. Yes I understand it’s more complicated than that, and that people still doubt and wonder. No. I don’t think the “semantics” hurt it more. Because I would say to this person, “No. You know whether you wanted it. You DON’T know if this person was who you thought he was. But if he did it, and you didn’t want it, then the answer is NO. He is not who you thought he was.” The semantics don’t make that worse. And in some ways, the semantics, give the victim a way OUT of doubt. NONE of this means that I approve of abuse, discredit any survivor, or agree with anyone who does. And I have just as loudly and bluntly outed them for THEIR actions as I’ve done with Coyote and her actions.

          • totorolight

            You want to know what statements like “it’s not BDSM” or “isn’t a real relationship” does? You know who it helps? Subs who have been victimzed by an abuser to have hope that her fantasy life isn’t made up of what just happened. It helps a sub understand that it wasn’t her fault. That this man VIOLATED her. She didn’t ask for THAT. She asked for BDSM and he gave her something else. Because no matter what way you slice it, he DID give her something else. But these violations leave scars. You and I both know that. Deep scars. Deep emotional scars. And I would hate for my beloved kindred spirits to go forward after this victimization, not only crushed by the person’s actions, but also crushed by this idea that the fantasy she had in her head, will never be more than fantasy. I don’t know how to explain that better. Suffice to say that during my time in seeking a dominant, 99% of the people I came across were not, and I gave up all hope that dominant men existed. I literally believed that feminism had bred out all the dominance in men, and any remnant remaining of dominance, was essentially scared out of them with the idea of being ostracized, accused, even criminally tried, for some kind of sexism or other social faux pas. I know what it feels like to think that everything you ever wanted in a relationship your entire life, not only WOULD never be, but COULD never be. It’s not a mean thing. It’s not cold and uncaring to say, “No hunny. That wasn’t BDSM. That wasn’t a true dom.” It’s kind. It’s saying, “No hunny. It’s okay. That wasn’t real BDSM. It’s still out there for you. Some dom is out there for you, waiting to give you all the things you really DO want. Don’t worry. That bastard can never take THAT from you.”

          • epochryphal

            different people different needs

            i really am done responding to you tho, as stated? coyote is still willing to talk, and ey has comments you haven’t responded to

            (again, coyote’s pronouns are not she, and misgendering im is the reason i’m out of this conversation.)

          • totorolight

            the misgendering I CAN apologize for. I meant no disrespect. I couldn’t decipher the gender based on name etc, so after I ran out of the acceptable uses of “coyote” I just did as I did before, self associated. It’s not at all meant as a bad thing, or a good thing. It’s kind of like….how when little girls play with their toys, a lot of THEM are girls. Faceless person over a computer with a name that could be multi gendered, and a lack of going back through commentary to locate a gender associated pronoun etc. IF there IS a gender associated pronoun Coyote prefers, I would like to know it so I can be more respectful. I don’t want to assume that “not she” means “he” when I know how big the trans-gendered community is, and sometimes they prefer a lack of pronouns or this pronoun or that one, or even ones I hadn’t heard of. I apologize for any disrespect in this manner and understand fully that my actions had no justifiable excuse when I could have asked or tried hard to obtain instead of selfishly associated as I pleased.

          • Coyote

            I have an About page. Two of them. Check the second one.

            I know Toto up there isn’t reading my comments, but to anyone else who is… Look! I have About pages!

          • totorolight

            I recall looking at the about page very briefly, so I apologize for not paying closer attention to this matter.

          • Coyote

            There you are.

            Did you read my “true doms” post?

          • totorolight

            Yes. And didn’t much appreciate THEM either. I doubt you appreciate much of my work either. We aren’t really compatible. That’s neither good, nor bad.

          • Coyote

            I was talking about one singular post, actually. Mind starting a new comment thread there?

            Or how about here? That post is particularly relevant as well.

          • totorolight

            Oh yeah. No I knew you meant one singular post, but I am trying to multi task putting my kids to bed, talking with you all, helping my husband to set the draw stop on his new bow, respond to a friend on Facebook, and take my nighttime medication. So I read the “doms” and then interchanged my plurals and….yeah. sorry. It’s complex. Anyway. Yeah. I read IT. And I didn’t care for it. And I’ve read a couple that you’ve posted since that one, and didn’t care for them. We have very different ideology. I don’t know where you’re from and all, but we obviously have different cultures too.

          • Coyote

            So are you going to source/cite quotes for any of those claims you made about me back there, or have you dropped those?

          • totorolight

            I haven’t dropped them. I stand by what I said. I think you have a personal problem with people in BDSM. I believe you have essentially stated BDSM is abuse, and then when I’ve accused you of such you have either backtracked or defended such. And for all that, I don’t have any desire to read through a million posts from several months ago. I just happened across a response from epochryphal and responded to it directly. It’s very plain: you don’t agree with what I’ve said, and I don’t agree with what you’ve said. Not sure how much more simple it can be.

          • Coyote

            “I think you have a personal problem with people in BDSM.”

            No, just a personal problem with you.

            “I believe you have essentially stated BDSM is abuse,”

            1) this is not what I would like to state; in fact, I prefer not to use the term “BDSM” at all
            2) please walk me through how you can derive that interpretation from my specific words; you keep stating that explanation without connecting any dots and I would like to see how you would do that.

          • totorolight

            I don’t feel the need to connect the dots AGAIN. I’ve already done all of this in our ORIGINAL debate 2 months ago. You want specifics? see the original debate.

          • Coyote

            You’ve connected no dots. Where do you see that?

          • totorolight

            In the original debate from 2 months ago on your original blog post.

          • Coyote

            Quotes quotes quotes quotes quotes quotes.

          • totorolight

            As I said. Not going into again. I said what I wanted to say THEN. You are too thick to get it. I accepted that and moved on. You want to go back into all that jazz, go back to the comments on your own post that were posted 2 months ago. December 22 I think is the date. Have at it, Tiger.

          • Coyote

            You’re the one who came back to comment again so

            quote it.

            ‘Cause as is, I’m thinking it’s not there.

          • totorolight

            hahaha. you don’t know how to read your own blog. That’s just too hilarious. As I said. I came back to talk to epochryphal. Not you. So I’m really not obligated to do anything. I didn’t come back to continue OUR argument. I came back to respond to something your FRIEND said and converse with THEM.

          • Coyote

            “hahaha. you don’t know how to read your own blog.”

            By all means, instruct me.

          • totorolight

            Yeah. Not really my job to instruct you on how to read your own blog. We aren’t friends, I don’t like you, you don’t like me, I’m not being paid for any such services, so with all due respect you can pound sand. I am far from obligated to help you in any way.

          • Coyote

            What I was asking was, where are you getting this BS about how I’m “stereotyping” you or whatever?

          • totorolight

            From our original argument on this post! You posted this a few months ago. 2 months ago, I believe on December 22, I responded. I expressed how I didn’t appreciate your point of view, how it was coming across to others like myself, and why I felt it was flawed. And it went on for hours and literally got no where. Just you defending these perspectives. So. There ya have it. You stereotyped my lifestyle, decided we were “bad”, abuser enablers. That’s what your argument said. So. That’s it. I tried 500 different ways to convince you differently, but you were just SOOOOO sure. So. That’s it. It’s done. You are a hater and no one will convince you otherwise. More than proven that. Congrats.

          • Coyote

            Direct. quotes. Direct quotes. Not paraphrasing. Quotes.

          • totorolight

            yeah. I’m not your “bitch” if you’ll pardon the phrasing. I don’t have to give you direct quotes or do anything else for you. In case I haven’t proven it already, I’m not obligated to do anything for you.

          • Coyote

            “I’m not your ‘bitch’ if you’ll pardon the phrasing.”

            I won’t.

            “I’m not obligated to do anything for you.”

            That’s correct, but since you’re here, and since there’s something you want me to know, and since I’m interested to know, why not?

          • totorolight

            yeah. I’m here. And you want to know. And you’re interested. All that doesn’t make me obligated to do your research/work for you. i’ve directed you to where to find it, which is actually more than I’m obligated to in the first place. I’ve DONE my kindness for you. I’m done.

          • totorolight

            To be honest, I think that even the cultures and lifestyles and etc are less relevant than this one, outstanding factor: I’m a highly sexualized individual and you are not. So immediately that sets off a big difference about what is important, what isn’t important, what requirements each of us needs in our lives for our lives to be “happy”, what motivations we have in our lives…our entire philosophies are completely opposing I think.

          • Coyote

            I really don’t think your not being ace explains your peculiar struggles with reading comprehension. Anyway, nice job alluding to this post, if that’s what you were doing.

          • totorolight

            Nor do I think your BEING ace explains YOUR struggles with reading and logic comprehension. As I said. I merely responded to a comment to me that HAPPENED to be on your post. All I can do is commend you for your admirable fight against a society that has set “Social norms”, as I have my own struggles against those social norms and know how tough it can be. I very much dislike and disagree with your logic, your so-called “civility”, and your prejudice to people involved in my lifestyle. And I even more abhor your adding to any misinformation being passed around that enables more people to judge myself and anyone who has the struggles that I do regarding my lifestyle. For those things we are at odds. But I try, in my life, not to hate the PERSON who holds views I disagree with, even if those views are harmful to me in some way. I just wanted you to know that our mismatched perspectives and my anger with you for even SEEMING to spread information that discredits my lifestyle in any way, doesn’t mean I have no respect for YOU.

          • Coyote

            “your prejudice to people involved in my lifestyle”

            I don’t know what your criteria/definition of “prejudice” is if I’m someone who has befriended people involved in your “lifestyle” & has lamented not being able to be more involved in it myself…

            “And I even more abhor your adding to any misinformation”

            Quote. it. Quote what I said that you consider misinformation. Exact quote. Not paraphrasing.

          • totorolight

            Yeah. I am pretty sure if there are “self hating Jews”, there are also friends of people who are Jews who still hate Jews. Just as an example.

          • Coyote

            Are you capable of trying to argue without resorting to racist analogies? Can you prove it?

          • totorolight

            Can you prove there AREN’T?

          • Coyote

            Can I prove there aren’t what? I asked if you were capable of something; I didn’t make a claim about what does or doesn’t exist.

          • totorolight

            You said,”Are you capable of trying to argue without resorting to racist analogies? Can you prove it?” Regarding my post about self hating Jews. So I said, can y ou prove there’s AREN’T friends to people who hate specific lifestyles or religions or people of color, etc? I live in the real world. This whole argument you’re citing …yeah. It doesn’t fly for me. I use these examples to show you khow your comments make others feel. Just because I have a BDSM lifestyle, doesn’t mean you can hate on me, my friends, or anyone else in this lifestyle and say, “well it’s not the same as prejudice against these OTHER groups” All you’re doing, for ME is proving that you are a very hateful person who tries to justify your hate. I may not have suffered slavery, been oppressed by my government, been through a holocaust or any of those horrible events, doesn’t mean you aren’t capable being hateful and prejudiced towards the group i AM part of. It’s like…like you found out it was socially unacceptable to hate on this group, that group, and the other one, but this one is still okay. They’re just subs and doms afterall. This is what is coming across from your words. If you don’t INTEND these things to come across, I’d recommend rethinking how you are phrasing things.

          • Coyote

            A quote! Very good. I’m glad you used a quote. It helps me understand the specifics of what you’re responding to and adds clarity.

            “So I said, can y ou prove there’s AREN’T friends to people who hate–”

            No, I can’t, and also, I think there’s been a misunderstanding over a pronoun. When I wrote “it” there, the “it” I was asking you to prove was that you can argue without making racist analogies.

          • totorolight

            *eye roll* I think you just find the analogies too damaging to your argument that you should be able to bad mouth and lie and start rumors about a group of people you irrationally hate.

          • Coyote

            1) you keep using analogies that are racist, antisemitic, and homophobic, and that’s what I’m against. If you don’t get what’s wrong with them, that’s a separate conversation. They’re not advancing you anywhere, so might as well drop them anyway.
            2) I am not bad mouthing or lying or starting rumors about a group of people, and the groups of people I irrationally hate have not come up in this conversation. This is another example of you making a random accusation about what I’m supposedly doing, when I’m not doing or trying to do that at all, and you keep refusing to substantiate these random accusations about me.

          • totorolight

            No. That’s the point. I am against racism. I am against antisemitism. I am against homophobia. Hence why I use them. I know you also are against them. So this is an analogy you SHOULD understand. “I am offended because to me it is akin to….” But instead of even TRYING to understand, you sit there saying I’M racist, anti semite, and homophobic. Cause that SOMEHOW makes sense?

          • Coyote

            “Cause that SOMEHOW makes sense?”

            Yes. But like I said, topic for another time.

            Can you explain why you’re offended without using analogies?

          • totorolight

            Can I? Maybe. But I already tried all of that. Didn’t work then. So….why bother now?

          • Coyote

            I don’t know, the same reason you’re still hitting send on replies?

            Your analogies never work for me so it’d be more efficient if you just quit them. So. Can you explain what offends you here (just in the OP, if that’s simpler) without using analogies?

          • totorolight

            As to telling you what offends me…it’s past midnight here. I’m going to bed. Maybe (that’s a BIG maybe, as in just as likely no as yes) another time. And I may be just starting to give becuase I’m tired. Then again, maybe you are coming across like you really want to know what makes you come across offensive and maybe fix it. I don’t know. Later, I may decide that you just wanted to pull me into another argument of you telling me how horrible BDSM is or something. I don’t know. I’m too tired to tell. So. For now, Goodnight.

          • Coyote

            Goodnight. You can answer this in the morning.

          • totorolight

            Right….I’m here in the morning of my own choice. Not because you gave me some permission, or insinuated that I “better answer in the morning”. You are…VERY arrogant and take a lot of liberties with people you don’t even know that you have no right to. Answering in the morning is a choice I can or will make that has nothing to do with you. And your statement of “You can answer in the morning” like you’ve done me some sort of kindness in ALLOWING me to go to bed and respond to you in the morning…it’s sickening.

          • totorolight

            yeah you sound like you’re really sorry. The questionmark sure seals the sincerity. For someone with such ideas about BDSM you sure have an interesting attitude. AND for someone against abuse, for that matter. Since, again, I’m NOT obligated to you, have no requirement to do anything you tell me to do. I don’t have to ask permission from you for anything I do. Yet you felt entitled to tell me that I COULD come back this morning and tell you, like you had the right to tell me no OR yes regarding the issue. I can walk away and come back any time I feel like it. You don’t know me yet felt like you had a right to give me “permission” to come back, and told me what time of day I could say things? right. That’s not controlling at all.

          • Coyote

            “Yet you felt entitled to tell me that I COULD come back this morning and tell you,”

            It was a suggestion. Didn’t mean to make it sound like granted permission. Didn’t know you would fly off the handle over it. Obviously, yes, I regret that now.

            Anyway, are my “interesting” ideas about BDSM that I think BDSM is a really unwieldy umbrella term, or something else?

          • totorolight

            And once again. Not random accusations. I got them from our original argument. And whether or not you’re CONSCIOUSLY trying to do any of those things doesn’t really matter. Because that is still what you ARE doing. I’ve already substantiated the arguments. I gave you reference to where to find them. Just because you’re INCAPABLE of looking through your own blog, doesn’t mean I didn’t cite them.

          • Coyote

            “And whether or not you’re CONSCIOUSLY trying to do any of those things doesn’t really matter”

            I can understand that. Intent isn’t magic etc. etc. I clearly don’t want to do those things, though, and evidently you think I’m bad at avoiding them, so any tips?

            “I’ve already substantiated the arguments.”

            Quote it.

          • totorolight

            It’s too late at night for tips right now. As to “quote it”….no. I told you where to find it. I don’t have to do your work for you. If it’s important to you, you can find it yourself. It IS your blog.

          • Coyote

            Are you not quoting because you can’t find it?

          • totorolight

            hahaha. that would imply I even bothered to look for it. Why would I look for it? I told you, I’m not obligated to help you find anything. It’s your blog. We argued on December 22. Find it yourself.

          • Coyote

            “Why would I look for it?”

            Indeed, why would you look for something that’s not there?

          • totorolight

            *yawn* why would I tell you WHERE something was, if it didn’t exist? You have openly admitted that you can’t navigate your own blog. That’s your problem.

          • totorolight

            As for the lamenting, let me give you an example of the way this comes across (just keep in mind this is an example and not how I actually feel): I am not a fan of Twilight. Well. Vut so many people are and it’s interesting from afar. I think I’ll read it/watch it and see what I think. Throughout my experiences in reading/watching this item, I still very obviously have strong criticisms about it, that I came IN to reading it with. So while reading, I make sure to find everything that could possible be viewed negatively, and make sure to be very open and loud about these criticisms, my original criticisms as well as ones I come across as I’m going through. By doing this, I am “researching” and “giving it a try” and I’ve even taken an honest interest. However, it seems, at least outwardly that I have decided to partake in this to prove my original thoughts on the matter correct. So I judged the book by it’s cover, to use the term loosely, gave it a try anyway, and looked for ways to prove my judgments correct. And this is how it seems you are handing sexuality, or specifically S/M, D/S lifestyles.

          • Coyote

            I was talking about this post.

            Still not seeing quotes.

          • totorolight

            And you won’t. I referred you to where to find them. If you want them, go get them.

          • Coyote

            jsyk when your response to “I don’t see how X indicates Y” is “go figure it out yourself” that’s not a persuasive tactic generally. I have not found anything; I am not persuaded. It keeps appearing to me as though you’re pulling random accusations out of your past experience with people who aren’t me. How can it look any different to you?

          • totorolight

            *yawn* actually. My response was: I’m not arguing this with you AGAIN. I already did. But this is what I got from our original argument. The one I’m not doing for a second time. If you want to see how I got to those conclusions then please go see our original argument. Thanks. I’m not surprised you didn’t find anything. Your holier-than-thou nature, and infallible perception of yourself probably helped you out a lot with not finding anything wrong with the original argument. Random. LoL We had ONE conversation. It was long, but it was ONE. And it was all about the exact same thing. So this “random” thing is pretty silly. I got these accusations from my specific encounter with YOU. I didn’t go talk to a man at the bar and then come yelling at you or something.

          • Coyote

            “If you want to see how I got to those conclusions then please go see our original argument.”

            Quote it or spell it out because it sure as heck wasn’t clear then and it still isn’t now.

            “Your holier-than-thou nature,”

            I suck.

            “and infallible perception of yourself”

            I make mistakes. I’m wrong about things. It happens. It’s just that you haven’t convinced me that it’s happening now.

            “I got these accusations from my specific encounter with YOU.”

            No, I mean, things like 1) how I supposedly hate kinksters, 2) how I supposedly think bdsm = abuse, 3) how I supposedly think abusers are quantifiably more common in bdsm communities 4) how I supposedly think doms are a step away from murderers (and other sundry things you have accused me of) are, in my view, disconnected from the things I have actually said and actually feel quite random in their inapplicability.

          • totorolight

            yeah i haven’t convinced you now. Or then. And all the discussions I’ve ever read with you in them you weren’t wrong or mistaken in ANY of those either. Ever. Convenient. As to the rest…yep. Those would be the arguments you made in the original argument 2 months ago. I gave you a date. What’s the problem?

          • Coyote

            “And all the discussions I’ve ever read with you in them you weren’t wrong or mistaken in ANY of those either. Ever.”

            *shrug* Do better?

            “What’s the problem?”

            The problem is that you’re here telling me that my words mean something I don’t want them to mean, but won’t help me find a way to renounce the unintended message while keeping the intended. I also summarized the problem in this post, where I talk about how my actual stance is different from both sides of a false dichotomy.

          • totorolight

            News flash: I gave you the opportunity when I first approached you and told you all this is what was coming across. I gave you HOURS of conversation and analogies and explanations and attempted to understand and persuade YOU to understand. Hours. Why exactly do I need to do it again? Because only NOW, 2 months later, are you getting that that is the perception you give to others? How is that MY problem? Seems like a YOU problem.

          • Coyote

            I really don’t understand why you’re pushing this when you seem content with Cor (epochryphal), and yet co’s been saying slightly reworded versions of things I also believe.

          • totorolight

            No. I don’t think that’s the case. I think epochryphal tried at all to understand my argument. When you and I argued…not so much. I was an abuser because I was a sub, and my community encourages abuse, and there’s more abuse in BDSM than anywhere else, and my community needs to clean up this mess WE made, and etc. There was ZERO give. epochryphal and I found a middle ground. Despite many times I tried to show I was trying to understand you, but you didn’t even try to understand me back then. So….why do you expect so much of me now? Not to mention, epochryphal is actually part of the community. Let me give you this example: Once I was talking with my inlaws on social media when my husband’s ex wife jumped in. My inlaws and I had been kind of laughing at our flaws of sometimes procrastinating. When the ex jumped in, she used OUR last name, which was no longer HER last name, to point out how it’s the “Jones” genes that make us procrastinate. Now this comes shortly after an argument where she accused US of showing up late to pick up my step daughter from her, where she said we were just too lazy to get her, etc, when in actuality my step daughter had ASKED us to pick her up slightly late so she could have more time to get her things together. Didn’t stop her from bad mouthing us anyway, right in front of our daughter mind you. So despite that she was saying the “same thing” my inlaws and I were, her words came across as “fighting” words. Because she wasn’t laughing good-naturedly about this procrastinating thing. She was taking a shot at us. A low blow for something she already really believed. I hope you can understand how this is similar in some ways to that for why your friend with similar views and I were able to find middle ground.

          • Coyote

            “I was an abuser because I was a sub,”

            Wait, what? No you aren’t. I mean, if you are, then it’s not because of that. That’s silly.

            “and there’s more abuse in BDSM than anywhere else,”

            What will it take for you to notice when I disagree with one of the claims you’re attributing to me?

            “epochryphal and I found a middle ground.”

            If you try summarizing that middle ground we can see if it’s something I agree with.

            “Not to mention, epochryphal is actually part of the community.”

            So Cor has Credentials. But you’re also convinced that me being friends with kinksters is a fluke explained by those kinksters being self-hating and not having Credentials. You’ve also referred to Cor as my friend, which co is. These don’t add up. Which one would you renegotiate?

            “Let me give you this example:”

            Please no more examples instead of talking plainly. I’m too autistic for this.

          • totorolight

            Yeah. It is silly. THat’s been my point all along yet, here we are. You say NOW that you disagree with them yet 2 months ago it’s what you argued. So…yeah. And you completely misunderstood my statement regarding kinksters. Just another analogy, but you clearly have no idea how to interpret analogies. I wasn’t saying your friends are self hating. I was saying that if it happens in society that there are self hating Jews, (i.e. Jewish people who hate jewish people), then logically it can also happen than a non-Jewish anti-Semite could be FRIENDS with Jewish people. Therefore, the argument that “I have Jewish friends so I can’t be an anti-Semite!” is just is a logical fallacy.

          • Coyote

            “You say NOW that you disagree with them yet 2 months ago it’s what you argued.”

            Quote it.

            “I wasn’t saying your friends are self hating.”

            Cool. Still think you should drop the analogies, but I’m glad you’re not claiming that anymore at least.

          • totorolight

            YEah. you want me to drop the analogies yet this is one that you brought up that I’d already used. Which you misinterpretted int he first time and I merely explained more thoroughly. You really want me to drop the analogies because you clearly lack the logic required to decipher them.

          • Coyote

            Wait, what? What’s the analogy that I brought up?

          • totorolight

            analogy about self hating Jews. No wonder you can’t find the posts from two months ago. You can’t find the conversation from 2 HOURS ago.

          • Coyote

            Oh, I thought by “brought up” you meant making the analogy in the first place. That clears that up.

          • totorolight

            It wasn’t at all my intention to respond to you at all, as a matter of fact. However, when I DO feel I’ve done wrong, I try to apologize for it, and make amends on those matters. I wouldn’t have responded to you at all if not for the accusation of misgendering. I wasn’t going to do wrong and run off though, that’s very bad form.

          • epochryphal

            ‘ppreciate this comment. under About 2.0 on coy’s blog top-bar:

            ey/im/ir/irs/imself (with how-to-use link)
            it/it/its/its/itself
            or use others if you insist

          • totorolight

            As for different people and different needs…exactly. It’s also offensive to hear people say that my comments somehow hurt victims more, when for ME I’m doing everything I can to help them. I may not use the same encouragements you do. That doesn’t make the ones I use harmful, hurtful, or “bad” in any other way. I wish you would just consider that perhaps these terms and dissociations with someone I shouldn’t be associated with anyway…well they’re just DIFFERENT than your way of doing things when it comes to victims. And different doesn’t equal bad. It seems like something you and Coy haven’t really asked about or anything, but just decided was bad, and harmful and hurtful semantics. And…well that’s flatout hurtful. I’ve BEEN a victim. To think that I would be causing someone who was hurting like I was hurting MORE harm….well that just hurts ME a lot to even hear.

          • epochryphal

            i think it’s more that we have all arrived at conclusions based on our experiences as victims/survivors. (not 100% sure if coy ids as a capital-S Survivor, but i do think it’s fair to say that abusive dynamics are not a stranger to any of us personally.

            and…well, yeah. your way, kinda hurts me/us. and it sounds like our way, kinda hurts you. perhaps the point is not to have One Way?

            (and it…does feel, from here, like “not Real doms” is One Way, whereas saying “sometimes they Are doms though” is more…admitting it varies?)

            i really do recommend reading coy’s thoughtout post on how “Real dom” discourse can be hurtful; ey’s linked it in a comment recently.

            unintentional harm and conflicting needs are unfortunate realities for all of us. circling back to my initial pacifisty statement, we all want safety and affirmation for survivors, for Ourselves, and we have very different ideas of what that looks like, and come from very different contexts too.

            so like…we have our reasons, and they’re good ones. and you have yours and i don’t doubt they also make sense. but when we tell you you’re hurting us and we want things done differently…we aren’t making up being hurt, is the thing. we could just be incompatible. that’s real.

          • totorolight

            So what exactly is to help each other to not feel victimized by one another? I mean…if I feel hurt that you are saying I am harming victims by saying what I say to them, and you feel hurt by my saying that YOU are causing harm to people by citing that there’s more abuse in the BDSM community than others….I dunno. Maybe that is the definition of incompatible.

          • Coyote

            “by citing that there’s more abuse in the BDSM community than others”

            Literally where are you getting this

          • epochryphal

            it’s…not that there’s MORE abuse in the bdsm community. i don’t believe that, actually.

            it’s that…idk. that it’s a more /vulnerable/ place in a lot of ways? from my experience. and that it often projects this image of being Healthy Perfect We Understand Consent 110% And Will Never Permit Abuse, when that’s not actually possible.

            and…yeah. i think it’s… ofc if there’s a specific victim/survivor, the solution is: find out what helps them!

            but if it’s General Discourse… mm. maybe the solution is, to make these different perspectives accessible, so any one person can find the one that works for them.

          • totorolight

            That I can buy. It can be a more vulnerable place. Sucks to not know someone is really just abusive until there’s nothing you can do about. Not even fight back or say no, because you’re tied down or something. I never denied THAT. But that doesn’t make understanding consent, never permitting abuse not possible. To me that’s akin to “we don’t permit rape” not being a plausible statement when we leave a drink unattended at the bar on occasion. In that way we “permit rape” right? Abusers are 100% at fault. Not the victims, even if they allowed themselves to be tied up first or something. They get what they didn’t ask for, what they didn’t want. And no matter what, it’s not okay. Just like dressing sexy isn’t permission to rape, wanting kinky sex isn’t permission to abuse. Someone taking advantage of the trust a sub offers, doesn’t make it…permissible. I guess that’s just my argument to what I perceived to be your argument. You can let me know if I didn’t get your argument quite right.

          • epochryphal

            ah. slight misunderstanding. of course the abuser is 100% responsible and the victim is 0%.

            what i’m saying is — the BDSM community cannot with 110% accuracy Prevent All Abuse. or even with 110% accuracy Detect All Abuse/Abusers.

            abusive folks are good at flying under the radar, yeah? it’s what they do.

            so i feel like… the way i’ve found BDSM community to say, “we’re 110% Safe! zero abuse here ever!”

            …is an unfulfillable promise, and can lead folks to let their guards down, and get snatched up by an abusive person.

            so it’s, less about Permit, bad choice of word on my part, but more about We Promise It’s Impossible To Happen Here, and how that doesn’t come true

          • totorolight

            Well no community can 110% predict, prevent, or detect all abuse or abusers. I never really wanted people to think BDSM was infallible. I just want this whole argument that we’re worse off somehow to stop. BDSM community has abusers. Homosexual community has abusers. So does the transexual community. I just think….those of us IN the lifestyle are getting sick of all the accusations and are getting more and more defensive. So then claims get more and more…prideful. Ya know? “I’m not an abuser, but I could smell one 100 miles away!” When it merely started as “I’m not an abuser!” Then the next argument was, “Yeah but you enable them”…etc. I haven’t heard, “There is no abuse here at all!” Even I wasn’t trying to say THAT. Just trying to …explain and show the difference and the distance between us and them. Ya know? It’s kinda like…I used to dress gothic in middle school. Then Columbine happened in Colorado, and suddenly I was accused of being one of them. Seriously. I was even suspended from school for 3 days around the first anniversary of Columbine because a rumor started that I was going to do the same thing. And this is like that….abusers in the BDSM community are there, and now people are like “Hey! They’re ALL abusers” just like me and my best friend at the time, were both suspended from school for things we never even did. We merely dressed in black and were loners. But it didn’t matter because the Columbine kids dressed in black and were loners. :(

          • Coyote

            “Well no community can 110% predict, prevent, or detect all abuse or abusers.”

            Look. Look at that. It’s a thing we agree on!

            “Homosexual community has abusers.”

            …If you would nix the h-word and use gay instead of sounding like an evangelical preacher, that would be good. Just saying since I’m pretty sure you’re straight.

            “I just think….those of us IN the lifestyle are getting sick of all the accusations and are getting more and more defensive. So then claims get more and more…prideful. Ya know?”

            I know.

            “I haven’t heard, ‘There is no abuse here at all!'”

            I have.

          • totorolight

            Actually I’m bisexual. I was engaged to a woman for a year and a half. Just for reference. I say homosexual because in MY community, using “gay” if you’re NOT gay, even if you’re bi or something other than hetero, is the politically incorrect term.

          • Coyote

            “Actually I’m bisexual.”

            Cool.

            “I say homosexual because in MY community, using ‘gay’ if you’re NOT gay, even if you’re bi or something other than hetero, is the politically incorrect term.”

            That’s bizarre but okay.

          • totorolight

            I don’t know how to explain to you why “gay” is the politically incorrect term here. It’s kind of like….people who are not black saying the N word. If you’re not gay, you aren’t allowed to say it. I mean that’s not the BEST analogy. But it’s the best I can think of. Sorry. I tried.

          • totorolight

            Anyway. If it’s not too forward, I’d like to say I like you. I respect you. we’ve talked and discussed adn…found a way to be with each other respectfully. And I like that. Incompatible or not, I respect when I can talk to people who have…a similar way of conflict resolution. So we can find a way to share this planet with one another. Ya know?

          • epochryphal

            thanks! it def got heated. i agree it’s really nice that we were able to step back and consider how personal and different this is for all of us, and accept that. huzzah for working through!

          • Coyote

            “What exactly do you recommend for ‘doing better’ anyway?”

            I’ve written multiple suggestions on this… that you claim to have read… so maybe we could start on what specific parts of them you’re having trouble understanding…

          • totorolight

            Oh I see. Coyote insulted and offended me in a CIVIL way so that’s better than my being blunt. Ok. got it. Next time I’ll be more civil about defending my name, and telling the stereotyping, prejudiced know-nothing that her thoughts are heavily misguided and that I’d appreciate her researching her topics better before posting her nonsense. Yeah. I’m hostile. I defensive. Not OFFENSIVE. DEFENSIVE. I was offended. And I defended my name, my lifestyle, and all the kindred spirits I adore so much. I’m protective. That’s me. You don’t have to like that either. Yeah. Coyote is hard to read and understand. SAys one thing and a minute later says something exactly the opposite. Or says this statement actually meant THAT. Then I have to go, ok well if it meant THAT then I misinterpretted something that I THOUGHT was a statement that really played to MY argument not yours (i.e. proved right). But the arguments just kept getting more and more “convenient”. Say one thing, and I respond, then what coyote said didn’t mean that at all, it meant this, then I’m still wondering how the heck it meant THAT, when it said THIS. Decided, and still believe, that coyote kind of “plays in reverse”. I’m blunt and can lack tact. But I wouldn’t go so far as to say I’m not civil. Furthermore, you’re a biased party. This is your friend. It may interest you to know that the people on my end, who have read the discussion, have said coyote and the people on THAT side were the hostile and aggressive ones. Perspective is everything I guess. My apologizing for attacking first or even honestly misinterpreting anything, was MY attempt at showing my understanding and showing that I am not some hostile bitch who just showed up to bad mouth coyote. Becuase that’s never how it was. I showed up and explained how her views were a misconception and that it comes across offensive to others. Which I explained very carefully. I guess next time I’ll skip any apologies, or attempts at showing I understand/am trying to understand. Why bother if I’ll be condemned for those as well. I’m appalled when people stick to beliefs that put down others. You can tout it as a strength that you “stick firm in your beliefs” and how amazing and strong you are. But in the end it’s just willful ignorance. It’s like I said, you choose to see the bad things in others and assume they are bad like others like that. In the BDSM community or in other areas of life. You may be understanding of people being “wary” of the BDSM community despite being in it. But again, my problem comes from this…fear mongering. This condemnation. Is it socially acceptable to be “wary” of black teenage boys dressed in sagging pants and hoodies? Generally not. I mean look at Zimmerman. Even just feeling insecure about a young black teenager, dressed this way, at night in his neighborhood, was greatly condemned. Judging books by their cover and stereotyping and etc. It’s socially unacceptable. But here you are, and coyote is, approving the same behavior, and it’s okay because it’s just the BDSM community. I don’t get that at all.

          • epochryphal

            whoaaaaaa racism and misgendering 2x combo gooooodbye

          • Coyote

            Pro tip: if you think the ~stereotyping you experience as someone into BDSM (which is an annoying thing that happens, yes) is at all comparable to the violence of White supremacy and is appropriate to bring up in this context, you’re racist. Bad analogy. Drop it.

          • Coyote

            “I had to fight the statement that ALL BDSM is abusive”

            So what would I have to say to get you to notice that no one is saying that here?

            “we in the BDSM community whom are NOT abusers, dissociate ourselves from those that are because we despise them as much as the rest of the world does. And this is the method in which we do.”

            Your methods need work, btw.

          • totorolight

            As for why I came back…well. All this time, I had given to ignoring anything after I’d left. Anything responded afterwards I willfully did not read at all. This is because I know myself very well. If I read it, and disagree, I HAVE to respond or I’ll keep thinking about “what I should’ve said”. A bad habit I picked up after being bullied a few times in grade school. Ya know. Lame “dang I should’ve said…that would’ve been great.” Not a fan of regret I suppose. In any case, I’ve had other activity in my blog that I hadn’t read into for a while, and happened on this one, which I didn’t recall was from all this nonsense until I’d gotten into reading it…after which was too late. I am me, after all. So. Here I am. (Yeah. I know it seems silly or pathetic but hey, it’s honest)

          • epochryphal

            btw isn’t what started this entire thread, you assuming the worst of OP?

          • totorolight

            Actually, if I recall, I responded to a post that was very condemning of people in s/m, in a very matter-of-fact manner, to which I was replied to in a manner that came across as, “Um. No. I’m dead on. There are more people who are abusive in YOUR community than any other, and you encourage abusiveness by being what you are, liking what you like, and YOU need to do something about those abusers you created.”

          • epochryphal

            you inferred all of that from an erroneous background. you recall incorrectly. read the op again. calling on kinksters to be Aware and Transparent and Anti-Abuse is not some unreasonable you’re-the-worst rhetoric. discussing how abuse gets enabled (yeah!) by being let slide is not…calling the whole community The Worst Most Abuse-Enabling Evar.

          • Coyote

            “I responded to a post that was very condemning of people in s/m”

            Are you talking about *this* post? Because like… it’s “very condemning” of a specific rhetorical move, not “people in s/m,” unless you want to define those as mutually inclusive. If you’re going to attribute claims to me, please at least point to specific things I’ve said so I know at least what spurred your thoughts.

          • totorolight

            What started this thread was an original post that stated very specifically that all relationships of an s/m nature are abusive. Which also is offensive. So I’m flabbergasted that everyone around here seems to play the “victim” when they were the ones attacking in the first place. What’s the problem? Don’t like when people defend themselves?

          • epochryphal

            nope. no and no, look. at. op. again.

            at this point you just seem to be Willfully ignoring context And intent And specific words/content and just. Everything we have to say. why did you come back?

          • totorolight

            From what I read, the blog I responded to, said that it’s not appropriate to say “not all d/s relationships are abusive” based on the sub choosing to stay. This, I read to mean “Stop telling me that not all d/s relationships are abusive, because obviously they are. Abuse victims stay too. See. There’s your proof.” When I explained it was more complex than that, and that in a true d/s relaitonship the sub has far more control than appearances suggest, I was shut down. Which says to me, yep, that’s exactly what Coyote meant in the blog post, otherwise the defense wouldn’t be there.

          • totorolight

            I read words. Words mean nothing without ton. Tone is actually given through speech. We don’t have speech. We have type. So one would try to understand intent based on further type. Further type gave me more the impression of which I spoke: d/s=abuse

          • epochryphal

            btw op’s second comment to you is:

            (quoting you) “We who ARE submissives, get pretty tired of the whole ‘BDSM is abuse’ thing very quickly.”
            Yes. I know. So do I.

            — see how op immediately establishes, you both agree, bdsm = abuse is tiring and wrong?

          • totorolight

            yeah. op is a complete hypocrite throughout the discussion. I caught onto that. “I don’t judge!” “I get tired of it too!” “I’ve talked to subs” “I understand d/m” right in there with arguments that condemn bdsm, assume that bdsm is abusive, assumes that people that are involved in bdsm ENCOURAGE and CREATE abusers, and even assumes that every dom is a sexist, a jerk, or just a spank away from being murderers. I am not in the habit of dismissing one comment because they said something completely different a minute ago. Unless they also are TAKING BACK one of those comments. Can’t say both and then expect me to sympathize with whichever is a more convenient argument at the time. THAT doesn’t work.

          • epochryphal

            uh……..opposite land

            just because op disagrees with your “an abusive dom is not a True dom at all”…..

            just because op is saying the bdsm Culture lets abuse slide (which heya i agree)……

            your characterization doesn’t follow. how many times do you want me to cite previous comments? you want them all compiled together, you wanna highlight the parts you think “contradict”?

          • totorolight

            as for the whole BDSM culture letting abusers slide, that is so NOT how it happens in MY community. I’ve been there for a citizen’s arrest for God’s sake. I’ve seen far more vigilante justice as well. So maybe we just live in different areas for that. Either way, NONE of that was in this blog post. And that’s what I responded to: THIS blog post. No. I’m not going through this entire conversation. I said what I wanted to say, and got out the exact point I wanted to make: you and your friend are hypocrites. Hateful and spiteful towards all people. Way past pessimism and being jaded. Right into hate. And not just abusers. But anyone who MIGHT be an abuser, which, from what you’ve said, is such a vague term that it really has no meaning for you all. I hate abusers. I hate people who excuse abusers. You sympathize with people wanting to stereotype an entire culture and all the people in it because some people smuggled their way in. And Maybe that makes sense for your side of the tracks, because your community and mine are very different. But the fact that the people in my area and your area react so differently to these things might be a clue for you that, I’m more correct than you thought: we CAN’T all be stereotyped into that group. If nothing else, it sounds like your group and mine are different on their own. Let alone each person in them.

          • Coyote

            “yeah. op is a complete hypocrite throughout the discussion. I caught onto that. ‘I don’t judge!'”

            I actually really dislike the phrase/claim “I don’t judge,” so even though I don’t remember everything I said here, I highly doubt I said that. Please quote me on actual things I’ve said. I don’t think that’s a fair paraphrasing.

            “I understand d/m”

            What’s d/m?

            “or just a spank away from being murderers.”

            ….What would your comments look like, I wonder, if you dropped the hyperbole? Is it just because you’re upset, and is that something we can work down from, or do you actually believe that?

            “Unless they also are TAKING BACK one of those comments.”

            What would you like for me to take back? Specifically.

          • totorolight

            Oh and as to all this…big, huge, complex topic nonsense. A good writer uses a intro, middle, and conclusion. If all that is intended in the original blog post, it needs to be included in the actual blog posts, not just sprinkled throughout an entire blog. A great number of the posts come across very specified, not generalized. And I got sick of reading the judgmental nonsense after a number of them went by. After all, who wants to read someone bad mouthing them over periods of months?

          • Coyote

            “What started this thread was an original post that stated very specifically that all relationships of an s/m nature are abusive.”

            It very specifically does not say that, so please very specifically read it again.

          • Coyote

            “It is not the fault of other Christians that some people misunderstood their jobs or rolls as Christians and went and started being uber jerks to everyone in the world.”

            It’s interesting that you bring that up as a comparison… because if we’re going full parallels here, then —

            1) Those bad acts by other Christians do not dissuade me from being a Christian (similar to abusive doms not dissuading kinky people from continuing to pursue their interests), but

            2) I also acknowledge that those bad acts by other Christians aren’t just some free-floating fact in the abstract but, actually, affect real, living people, and so

            3) when I find out that some of my blog followers who’ve been abused by Christians are triggered by some Christianity-related things, guess what I do! I make efforts to make my Christianity-heavy posts identifiable as such up front, so that someone who wants to avoid that content while still navigating my blog and the resources within can find it a little easier to do so! I understand that Christianity has been used to abuse people and I try to talk about it in a way that makes space for those hurts to be legitimate etc. etc. without denying that Christians can be abusive and making BS claims about what real abuse looks like etc. etc. basically the exact same things I’ve been asking the BDSM community to do? So whatever your point was, this analogy doesn’t seem like it contradicts anything I believe.

            “What more do you expect of him? What more do you expect of ME?”

            Are these rhetorical questions, or have you just… not actually been reading my posts? I haven’t been vague about what I’d like to see change.

            “So why exactly am I more responsible for their behavior than other people?”

            Uh… I dunno, I guess you should go ask someone who holds that belief?

            “So if I like ice cream and then a bad guy goes into the ice cream shop and robs it, am I more responsible for this horrific turn of events than the people who DON’T like ice cream?”

            Apparently you’re under the impression that I’m finding fault with you for having nerve endings or having preferences or something. If that has been your interpretation of my comments, please try again or back up and ask some new questions.

            “And this conversation is tricky, and you get this defensive response because it IS offensive.”

            Please literally quote me on the exact statement that is offensive. This conversation was a while ago anyway.

            “this situation of men who like dominant sexual relations but also think it’s perfectly acceptable to beat a woman to a bloody pulp or abuse her in any way”

            Wait, hold on, what? I’m kind of confused as to what moral standards you’re employing here. I didn’t realize you were against impact play? Or is it… impact play past a certain threshold? Or making a distinction between “hitting someone hard, a lot” and “beating someone”? I’m just legitimately confused what you’re implying, sorry.

            “when I very literally have nothing to do with it.”

            You’re the one who started identifying with the rhetorical move I pointed out a logical flaw in in the first place… You’re the one who thinks this post has something to do with you… If you’re not someone who uses that rhetorical move I described, then why are you here?

  • totorolight

    And I know the difference because I’ve experienced both: the abusive relationship, and the dom/sub one.

  • submissiveama

    As a submissive woman with a caring partner, I can attest that not all D/s is abuse. I can even argue that the Dominant serves the submissive just as much as the submissive serves the Dominant. It is meant to be a symbiotic relationship, a balance. When it isn’t, it can veer into abuse.
    I have been emotionally abused by makes who called themselves “Dominant” and I am in a relationship now where my every thought matters. I know the difference. He gas actually told me that our relationship is in my hands, because I have the power to set the rules. I decide. If I don’t like something, we don’t do it. Period.
    But there are a multitude of reasons why abuse victims stay in relationships, both within and outside BDSM. Sometimes it is as simple as not realizing the relationship is unhealthy.

  • submissiveama

    I want to chime in with my perspective, if I may.
    I am a submissive female. While exploring this and discovering what it means for me and my relationships, I encountered a few emotionally abusive “Doms.” (I use quotes because any Dominant worth their salt never intentionally causes harm to their submissive.) But I have encountered more abusers in the vanilla world. It happens. I didn’t label the general Dominant populace as abusers even though some are. I also didn’t recognize the abuse until after I left the relationships, and I am still dealing with the aftereffects.
    Unfortunately, so is my SO. He is a Dominant-leaning Switch, which means that while he is mostly Dominant, he doesn’t mind if I take initiative in the bedroom once in a while. He is Dominant, but for the first time I have a man who isn’t domineering. There is a huge difference: Dominants have an innate need to nurture and care for the person submitting to them. It is a symbiosis, not a parasitic relationship. Having been emotionally abused before, I can tell the difference.
    He has been earning my trust over months, never demanding it. He never asks for more than I can give. He does nothing that is without benefit to me or our relationship (i.e., nothing that only suits him or his whim). For him, control and power isn’t about getting his rocks off; he uses it to help me in ways that I can’t help myself. He is my emotional support. If I have a bad day, he listens and tells me that I am not complaining (even though I know I am). He constantly tells me that he finds me intriguing and special, that I am important to him and valued by him…as a person, not as an object. He has worked hard to build my confidence and esteem, he helps me recognize when relatives are being abusive or manipulative. He is highly protective of me.
    You know what the worst thing is that he has done to me? The absolute worst? Have me write a paragraph about how I would benefit from learning patience (because I have none). No, the worst was probably when he left a statement vague so I would have to ask him what he meant, something I have to learn to do. Admitting when I need help is something I discovered I shouldn’t do a long time ago. So the worst thing he has done to me so far is teach me to trust.
    He is worried about going too far and actually harming me when we play (I have asked for harder play than he is comfortable with currently). He doesn’t like causing pain, even though I crave it in a small fashion.
    Not one thing he has ever done in the course of our relationship could be considered abusive. He is the opposite. He believes that my happiness is just as important as his own. He is my Dominant, but he has never been my abuser.

    Yes, sometimes it does look like abuse. But most of the time it does not. And abuse comes from both sides of the slash. It exists just as much in the vanilla world as it does the kink.

  • submissiveama

    My apologies, I didn’t realize I re-wrote my previous statement. Feel free to ignore one or the other (or both, if you like)

  • Sennkestra

    Ugh, yes, kink and abuse….I keep forgetting how bad most common kink discourse is at dealing with that kind of thing until I leave my little bubble and then I get all disappointed again.

    My other favorite explanation is “kink is different than abuse because they have safewords”. Like, ??? Safewords are just a neat communication tool for roleplaying scenes where a regular “no” might get confusing, not a magic spell that prevents harm from ever occurring.

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